An Interview with previously incarcerated, immigrant, software engineer, Simon Liu (2018)
Somya: How do you perceive time?
Simon: I believe time is a concept, and it’s entirely subjective. I’ve spent time in isolation, and quite often I lost track of time while I was in the hole; completely isolated from the world and deprived of all human interaction. The only way to tell “time” was when the guards brought me food, and oftentimes I wouldn’t even get food. Other than the fact that some part of my existence was never ending, part of it was enjoyable. Therefore, “time” depends entirely on my perception. I’ve learned that sometimes we create time as a structure, in order to suit our own needs and society’s needs. But I believe we have the ability to see time in a different way and think outside the box.
Somya: What do you value most in life?
Simon: Life itself. The way to do that is through self-exploration; get to know yourself. Many people ask what the meaning of life is, and sometimes there isn’t an answer for every question that we ask. Maybe the meaning of life is to just live it, and understand it better on the individual and societal level. The most valuable part of life can be in asking the question. With a sense of curiosity, you can enjoy the journey as it comes, whether bitter or sweet. It is all in a package we call “life”.
Somya: What does freedom mean to you?
Simon: Freedom to me means to truly be yourself. You can be free whether you’re in a confined space like prison, or even in society where you are physically free. Freedom means different things for people. Sometimes it changes for me too, the definition keeps changing depending on what stage I am in life. I could be walking in a park, but at the same time be thinking about things that confine me; and therefore, I’m not free. Other times, I could be sitting in a prison cell thinking about things that are liberating, and during those moments I’m free. The funny thing is “freedom” and “time” are both subjective. We have both, the freedom to be confined and the confinement to desire freedom.
Somya: What is your deepest insight on society since you’ve returned back?
Simon: My deepest insight is the lack of insight that society has. For example, when there’s a traffic jam people get so angry and frustrated, but those things are so trivial. There are times when people are so motivated by money, fame, or desire to succeed in society. But at the end of the day, we don’t take any of that with us.
Somya: What overwhelms you with beauty? Beauty that you were not able to experience while you were incarcerated?
Simon: I never felt as though I missed out on beauty while I was incarcerated. Sometimes beauty emerges from the most difficult experiences. There would be no lotus without any mud. I see beauty in children who are just being their authentic selves; the small simple things in life are so beautiful. For instance, the other day when I saw a stranger share his food with a homeless man; that is beauty in itself.
Somya: What has your time in prison taught you about life?
Simon: The time itself did not teach me anything; what taught me the most about life is myself. I learned how valuable self-reflection is. Often, the simple evolution of growing up, maturing, and having the opportunity to endure pain and suffering can teach you a lot about life. Without pain and suffering you may not be able to see the beauty of life.
Somya: What was the most challenging part about returning to society?
Simon: I think the challenging part ended at the point of return. The most challenging part was preparing myself to re-adapt to society. We human beings are really adaptable; we learn how to function in the world. However, sometimes we need to keep our values close to our heart. For example, to be kind where kindness is see as being weak, to not hate when being hated because you can’t fully adapt and lose your identity. We should keep that best part of ourselves wherever we go, and adapt to the best of our ability; in order to be tolerant and understanding.
Somya: What has coding in itself taught you about life? How can you use your education in software engineering to understand the nature of society?
Simon: Well, software engineering is really straightforward; you design a system the best way you know how. Occasionally, the system may not function and run as efficiently as it should because of a bug. But when there is a bug, you go to the source of the problem and debug it. After you debug it, you try to optimize the system and make it as efficient as possible. Software engineers never deploy a broken system, and assume it is fixed. However, when it comes to society we obviously don’t work as logically as a computer. We’re driven by emotions so it seems as though we have trouble going to the source of the problem. Therefore, we tend to bury the problem, or completely hide the bug. There’s so much inequality in this world, but we just seem to suppress it. On the streets of San Francisco you’ll see a rich man walking by a homeless man, but what differentiates the two? One is perceived as a bug. Unfortunately, we aren’t trying to find the source of the bug to fix it. There are so many bugs in society, but rather than fixing them we isolate and bury them by putting the bugs in prison or marginalizing them. But we can fix these issues if we find the source of the problem. In programming you will not run an efficient component next to a component with a bug. Ultimately, you want to have the billionaire functioning to the best of his ability, and you want the man sleeping on the streets to function to the best of his ability, in order for our society to work well.
Somya: What is your favorite part of the TLM community?
Simon: My favorite thing about TLM is that it is trying to debug a critical problem in society. TLM is in the forefront of social justice; it’s given me an opportunity, and many others an opportunity to live to our full potential. Right after I found out I got my first job offer, I thanked Beverly (TLM’s co-founder) for the opportunity that TLM provided me with. However, she indicated that it was my own hard work that made all this possible. While that is true, I told her that opportunity has to come first in order for the hard work to be applied. TLM is at the forefront of providing opportunity, and it’s a stepping stone to hard work. Hopefully society can follow the footsteps of TLM and build a better, more harmonious world.
Somya: What does justice mean to you?
Simon: Often times society associates justice with judgement, but I try not to judge. I try to understand and empathize. Therefore, to me justice means equality. People from all walks of life, no matter what their background is gets the opportunity to live to their full potential. Not all of us are born equal, not all of us are born into an affluent family or neighborhood, or what society deems as the ideal skin color. So given that fact, justice means to be fair. So let’s be fair!
“We have both, the freedom to be confined and the confinement to desire freedom.”
Somya: Now that you’re about to begin a new journey as a software engineer, what challenges are you looking forward to?
Simon: All challenges are exciting. Where there is a challenge, there is an opportunity to get to know and improve yourself. I don’t think too far ahead about the challenges I will face, I deal with it as it comes. I honestly believe that’s the fun part; you never know what the challenge is going to be. Even in programming, you have no clue where or when your challenges will appear, and that’s true for life itself. We don’t know what challenges we’re going to face but it’s all about the attitude that we display when a challenge comes our way. Embrace it. That’s what makes life fun.
Somya: A lot of individuals feel bitter about their incarceration, but how do you perceive your journey through the prison system?
Simon: First we have to explore the question of who we are; what makes us who we are? It’s our life experiences. If you are resentful and bitter about things, then you did not learn anything from your experiences. Your experience is what makes you who you are. I’m happy with the man I am today; I am kind, generous and compassionate. However, without my past experience I wouldn’t be who I am today. So it’s a sense of acceptance that really matters. So no matter how difficult life is, no matter the amount of challenges that come your way, there’s always a learning in that experience. It’s an opportunity for growth and self-development. If you were to ask me if I would change anything about my past, I would say other than the people I hurt through my crime when I was teenager, I wouldn’t change a thing. My life experience makes me who I am, and I’ve accepted it.
Somya: Most Returned Citizens struggle with the economic dimension of life, so that being said, what does money mean to you?
Simon: Money is a form of trust. Since the ancient times, we created money because we no longer had the capacity to trust each other. In a more primitive time, humans used to trade goods and services with an agreement or handshake. However, this is no longer the case because we created a world of distrust; and that’s where money comes in as a form of tangible trust.
Somya: What are your words of wisdom for people who are currently incarcerated and those who have returned to society?
Simon: Well firstly, I think it makes no difference whether someone is in prison or not. You can obtain freedom wherever you. Just because you are confined in a space for the rest of your life doesn’t mean you’re not free, and just because you are free to walk around in society doesn’t mean that you’re not confined. So my words of wisdom would be this: find a way to get to know who you are, and be genuine about who you truly are.
Somya: What is your hope for TLM? And on a larger scale, what is your hope for our world?
Simon: My hope for TLM has already come true. It’s giving people like me, people who have come from a terrible background, the chance to build a new life. We are given the opportunity to make better choices. What I hope for the world is that it follows TLM’s path to be more tolerant and creative towards solving social problems. We have to follow our hearts; if it’s the right thing to do, then do it! Let go of the judgment and do your best to be understanding.
